Welcome to the Before You Market Podcast, where we challenge you to “Rethink Marketing.” In this episode, we’re excited to chat with Mark Schaefer, a top marketing expert who’s never afraid to shake things up! Here’s what we cover:
(edited for readability and humans)
Jon Bailey 00:00
All right, and we are live. No, we're not live. We're recording. All right, ready. Welcome to the Before You Market podcast where we challenge you to well, rethink marketing. We do this by bribing, I mean inviting some of the best marketers in the business to enlighten you on your path to marketing glory. So I have been a fan of Mark for years, and I've actually met him more than once in real life. So that makes us like this. We're tight, we're thick as thieves. No Mark is, Mark is one of those marketers who likes to shake things up and challenge the status quo, and I love him for it. So Mark, if you could take a moment and please introduce yourself to these good people.
Mark Schaefer 00:56
Well, first it's so good to see you again. And you know, for the podcast listeners to hear you again, yay. Yeah. It's great. It's great to reconnect. And you always do a great job with your interviews. Yeah. So, I mean, I spent, you know, about a quarter of a century in the corporate world learning my craft at a Fortune 100 company. It was a great experience. I got to do every kind of marketing job imaginable on a global basis. And then, you know, I guess it's been maybe 16 years, yeah, I started my own business, and it just, it just did. It just kind of took off. You know, sort of a pivotal moment for me was starting a blog. This is at a time when social media was becoming part of mainstream marketing. I thought it was endlessly fascinating, endlessly challenging, and also quite misunderstood by a lot of the people who were trying to do it in the early days, and I think my voice resonated because I had all this marketing experience. I was one of the few early bloggers that you know, had worked in marketing for 25 years, so I think that worked with people. And as you say, you know, I wouldn't say, I would never say that I'm controversial for the sake of being controversial. Oh no, no, not however I'm I'm unafraid to tell the truth. I mean, I don't really have any kind of agenda. I'm not trying to sell you content marketing or SEO, or, you know, Facebook advertising, so I try to call it like it is. And I think people appreciate that you know. And I also want to set an example to show that you can have a good, authentic voice to do well and not be toxic while you're doing it.
Jon Bailey 02:56
Amen brother. And by the way, the link to my affiliate store where you can get all sorts of useless crap will be in the show notes below. No, I'm just kidding. Good for you.
Mark Schaefer 03:10
Carry the banner. Man, right.
Jon Bailey 03:12
Yeah, exactly. So, the Grow blog, which there'll be links below, the Grow blog, and the marketing companion podcast, are both just great resources for marketers, and I highly recommend that everybody go check those out after you watch this interview. Mark always delivers with his books, so go read them all if you haven't already. But in the meantime, let's dive in and pick Mark's brain. Shall we? Mark? Are you ready?
Mark Schaefer 03:37
Ready to be picked?
Jon Bailey 03:40
Let's pick away. So your book Marketing Rebellion has the subtitle, the most human company wins. So why do so many companies seem to just sleep on this superpower? And how would you suggest they turn this around?
Mark Schaefer 03:59
Well, it's, that's, it's a great question. It's one that I think a lot about. If you think about how the world of marketing has evolved in the last 20 years, it's really moved into this idea of optimism, optimizing everything, and performance marketing, and there's this kind of scaffolding that we've put in place as we try to create Google sufficient content, as We try to we enjoy the relationships we have. You know, outsourcing stuff to to add agencies we want you we do what most big companies do. We try to, you know, create as much stuff as we can for the least amount of money possible. And we've got to a point where market. I think is exceedingly dull right now, and one of the main reasons for that is that we've taken the humanity out of it. I mean, everything about the social web really diminishes humanity. If you, if you, if you want to play the game and and do it right, you know you're writing, you're writing for algorithms, basically not people. You're featuring keywords, not voices and emotion. So I think the companies that are doing it well are starting to come around again, but I think that's the main reason why we've sort of lost our humanity in marketing. And really, I mean, that's a big part of my mission, I think, is is to, is to inject more more audacity, more authenticity, more human voices and emotion into our into our marketing. That's what we're supposed to be doing, right? The reason I got into marketing is when I was a junior in college, I opened up Dr cotler's textbook the principles of marketing, and said marketing is a combination of, let's see if I can get this right. As he said, it was sociology, anthropology and psychology. And I thought, oh my gosh, I want to do that. Marketing is all things human. It's all things human. But we never talk about it that way anymore, right?
Jon Bailey 06:31
So two things there, Audacity. I love that word in that context. I think that's phenomenal.
Mark Schaefer 06:38
Well, I'm really happy because the title of my the title of my next book is audacious. Well played. Well played. Gonna be out in January 2025, so you're gonna have to have me back.
Jon Bailey 06:50
Oh yeah, definitely. The other thing is, I think with that, we have marketers, or many just people in the business world have forgotten what what social actually means, you know, they kind of social media now, doesn't really mean being social. It just means, like, I don't know what, you know, fooling the algorithms. So, yeah, so in this quest for authenticity, I think, you know, interestingly enough, brands are increasingly or, I'm sorry, consumers are increasingly turning to nano and micro influencers for product and service recommendations, and brands are certainly already taking advantage of this. But do you think more small and medium sized companies are going to, you know, utilize this, this marketing channel, this marketing option in the future, or should they
Mark Schaefer 07:49
absolutely and the reason is that, I think this is really overlooked, that with these people we call influencers, they're really regarded by the people who love them as friends, right, right? There was this psychological phenomenon that was noted beginning in the 1950s when um, serial shows on television like comedies and Westerns started coming on on early TV, and people with repetitive viewing created this thing called a para social relationship with these characters. They sort of like almost forgot that they weren't characters that considered them friends and family members, and we we see that today with social media. And so I mean, what are we trying to do with branding? What are we trying to do with with brand marketing, we're trying to create this emotional connection between what we do and our customers. Now, if we can create a friendship, wouldn't that be awesome? And that's really what these influencers do at their at their best, right? And there's no reason. I mean, even like you know, in a local community, it's pretty easy to look at social media. Look at hashtags relevant to your product, your community, and find people who are talking about this. It's, it's not necessarily some celebrity doing dances on tick tock. Sure. It can be just people in your community that that are, that are passionate about, you know, food or crafts, or, you know, hair, vacationing, whatever. So it's connecting with those, those people. There's, yeah, there's lots of great examples of small businesses starting to look at that now.
Jon Bailey 09:51
I think it's, I think it's endlessly fascinating to to watch the shift in mindset. That of these small businesses and and see them open up to marketing opportunities that you know in the past have really only been utilized by larger, larger companies. And I think it's, you know, the the availability of these options, I think, is becoming, you know, more and more prevalent.
Mark Schaefer 10:20
So it's really the only obstacle is, is they don't think about it, I mean, so it's a process of education.
Jon Bailey 10:29
So let's, let's talk about AI, because everybody else is and and, you know, why not? I want to be, I want to be like everyone else, you know? I want to conform and fit in. You know, yeah, so in your post titled Why AI does not mean the doom of marketing, you quote Sam Altman, who is, I believe, currently the CEO of, yeah, yeah, he's on, he's, he's back, he's back, but, but Sam, also, Altman is basically saying that AI is going to replace 95% of what brands use marketers for today. But, you know, isn't he really only referring to advertising? You know, in my opinion, marketing is not advertising. Advertising is simply a subset of marketing. So do you think he's oversimplifying what marketing actually is in his assessment?
Mark Schaefer 11:26
I mean, I, I was careful, you know, to choose my words Sure, wisely in that post and be humble. Because, I mean, I mean, Sam Altman is in the middle of the middle of everything going on with AI, and he knows things, he sees things that we can't possibly even imagine. You know, however, I'm in the middle of the middle of marketing, so, I mean, I do have some opinion and authority when it when it comes to that, and I agree with you. I think if you take Sam Altman's view of marketing. It's like a relationship with an agency that creates repetitive, you know, tasks for you accomplishes repetitive tasks for you, repetitive content, repetitive posting, absolutely you know that's going to be taken over eventually by AI agents. It's already starting to happen. But I think when it comes time, I think the thing that drives me on this thing is that, and I'm not naive, I'm not sure, this pollyannish person saying, Oh yeah, you know humans for the win. I think I can see the potential impact of AI as realistic and as dispassionately as anybody else, but I do think that we will always have a need for human connection, for real human emotion we are we are going to want to know, who are these people at these companies? What do they do? What do they believe in? You know? How do they treat their employees? Increasingly, and this is something I've written about extensively. Increasingly, the the emotion toward a company or a brand is moving from like the product attributes to the people, right? If you think about some of the most talked about companies and the most talked about brands, it's not because their product is, is lemon fresh. It's not, not because it, you know, it cleans better, or because they're giving a donation to the United Way is because of the people. The personal brand is becoming the brand. I don't see that ever being replaced. And I think that if you think about all of the things we cherish most in our lives, they there's some human connection to it. Maybe it's a letter, maybe it's a craft, maybe it's something that was handed down in our family. You know, a piece of furniture doesn't become an heirloom unless it's attached to a human being in a story some way, right? And so I think, you know, number one human emotion, true. Human connected, connectivity will always matter. And I also think that humans sort of still own crazy, you know, and I think that's an unappreciated attribute. Love it when it comes, when it comes to marketing. And, you know, I think we're gonna, we're gonna, you know, I'm hoping at least that we're going to eventually break free of our algorithmic, you know, this pandemic. Of dull created by algorithms and performance marketing, and start getting a little crazy again.
Jon Bailey 15:07
See if I had the rights, I'd cue that Queen song. I want to break free. Yeah, it's probably break free. There you go. You did. So also in that post you say, you say that marketing often involves building relationship and trust with customers. You know, building a brand is basically about building trust at the end of the day, even advertising is about, you know, awareness and familiarity and familiarity can contribute to trust. So I guess what I'm saying is that ultimately, you know, marketing always in built. It involves building relationships and trust. So, you know, do you agree? Is that an overstatement, or is that really, at the end of the day, what it's all about? Yeah.
Mark Schaefer 15:51
I mean, in a way, it is a bit of an overstatement. Okay. I mean, because I think there are a vast number of products that we buy every day. We don't really care, sure. I mean, if I buy, you know, I'll buy a hamburger because it tastes good. I'll buy a shirt because it it has a nice color. I'll buy gas in my car, for my car, because I need gas, and this gas station is right there, right? I don't really care about what they stand for. I don't have any relationship with them. I just need gas and and if you think about, you know, all the, you know, all the products that that you've purchased in the last two months. I mean, I would say almost all of them, you don't really care, you know, you buy something and you just want to be left alone. Quite frankly, you're right, you know, I mean, I've just, you know, bought a new ladder. I don't want to join their community, right? I don't care about their branded content, you know, just, I have the ladder. It's going to last for it's going to last longer than me, right? Leave me alone. Now, you know, but, but, and so those are the types of those are the types of products that you know, the 4p still matter. You know, the product still matters, the price still matters, how you distribute it, the place, it still matters. All those things are really, really important. But then when we start getting into brand marketing, that's where the relationship matters, and that's where you begin to distance yourself from other products. And you can even do that with commodities. My favorite example is Yeti, right? I mean, eight, nine years ago, I started seeing people wearing T shirts that said Yeti. I thought, wait a minute, isn't that an ice cooler, right?
Mark Schaefer 17:46
What were you crazy? You gotta be kidding me, yeah, you know. So it brand marketing is super, super important. And of course, you know, Yeti's just become a Jugger or not. You go into a sporting goods store in America and they've got a whole aisle of Yeti products now.
Jon Bailey 18:03
Or what's the, what's the liquid death?
Mark Schaefer 18:07
I'm featuring them in my new book you talk about, you know, audacious marketing. That's, they're the poster child for that.
Jon Bailey 18:19
I remember watching so I, you know, my wife, and I love the show with Yellowstone and, oh yeah, you know, everybody loves rip. And there's a scene where, where rip sitting on on the steps of his, you know, his little log cabin that he lives on in the ranch and, and the sun setting, and, you know, he's pensive and thinking about something, and sitting right next to him as he reaches over and grabs a beer, is a Yeti cooler. And it's like, yeah, you know what? I mean.
Mark Schaefer 18:48
Hh man, that's perfect.
Jon Bailey 18:50
It's perfect. It was like, it was.
Mark Schaefer 18:51
That's the perfect product placement.
Jon Bailey 18:54
I was like, Well done, Yeti. Yes, that was good. So alright, these are my favorite questions. I've been getting questions from from from people on the Brand3 team. And this last question is from one of our very own strategists here, brand strategists here, Sarah Pattisall, who said, who asks what? And I'm curious about this personally because I've read a lot of your books. So what book took you the longest to write, or was the most difficult to write and why, and what book was the easiest or took the least amount of time? And why?
Mark Schaefer 19:28
Yeah, that is, that's nobody's ever asked me that before. The answer to the hardest book was Marketing Rebellion, okay, and it's, it's also probably my, my best book in a lot of measures. I mean, that book is, it's being used.
Jon Bailey 19:50
As a textbook, as a great book. Highly recommend it. Yeah, it's.
Mark Schaefer 19:54
Yeah, it's marketing there. You know, three of my books have. Sort of become like movements. One is known, I mean, and that was written in 2017 but it still holds up as the best personal branding book, because, I mean, I nailed it, you know. I mean, I'm probably going to do a revision of that book.
Jon Bailey 20:17
I still use recommendations from that book today.
Mark Schaefer 20:20
I spent two years researching that, and, I mean, I nailed it. So it really holds up that, that that really became a movement belonging to the brand, about brand community, that's really become a movement. And why I say that is because, like, I'm getting calls from like, big brands, like fortune, 100 brands saying, hey, you know, I just someone gave me this book. We need your help. This is the future. Help us change so, I mean, it's these are three books. They're having a big impact. Marketing rebellion was particularly difficult because it's a very complex book. It's fun to read, it's easy to read. There's lots of great stories and even some humor in there. But it's, it's, it's, it just took an enormous amount of research, enormous amount of work, and I was 1/3 of the way writing the book when I stopped and decided I need to, needed to start over, because my premise was wrong.
Mark Schaefer 21:34
It was a terrible decision, very difficult decision. But you know, when I, when I write a book, it's, it's, it's, you know, it has to be, right? It's, it becomes part of my legacy. I can't take it back. I can't take it down. It's not like a tweet or a blog post, right? And what happened was, I was, I was trying, you know, the when I write a book, I make an observation about the world I see, there's something going on that I can't explain, there's something there's a question that I need to answer, and if I could answer that question, then it would help a lot of people, and it would make a great book. And what was going on for marking rebellion is, you know, I get to see so many amazing people in all kinds of different companies all around the world. And I kept hearing the same thing, our marketing is just not working like it used to, right? You know, our numbers are down. It just doesn't seem to connect. And so the original premise of the book was exploring the the the technical, technological impact on marketing that was making these changes. And then as I got into the research, I realized it's, you know, the technology is part of it, but it's not the technology. It's the people, right? It's that once you, once a person, has the accumulated knowledge of the human race in the palm of their hand, they don't need that marketing anymore. They don't need to be manipulated. They don't need to be convinced they can make a really good decision on their own. And the role of marketing has changed, right? You know, like the powerful idea in the book, one of the powerful ideas is, is this famous research from McKinsey that showed two thirds of our marketing, two thirds of our sales, is happening without us. So, so the whole mindset of marketing has to change, right? It's not about telling everybody how great we are. It's getting everybody else to tell their friends how great we are. How do we earn our way into that two thirds and we can't buy our way in? And that's a completely different way to think about marketing, and I think that is sort of the revolutionary, the rebellious idea behind the book that really connected with people.
Jon Bailey 24:22
I can attest to the fact I, you know, there were times when I was reading the book where I was like, man, he went deep. I really did. There was a lot in there.
Mark Schaefer 24:34
So if you just think about, if you look like at the number of references in the back of that book. And this was before AI, right? I mean, this was that, that it was so you actually worked.
Mark Schaefer 24:48
Really worked. I really did. Well, I'll tell you a little, I'll tell you. And then the other question was like, what was the easiest book to write? I. Um, you know, after I wrote marketing rebellion and and I was ready, I was, you know, thinking about, you know, I had an idea for another book, and I picked up marketing rebellion, and I hadn't really picked it up and looked at it since it had been published, and I looked at this book, and I felt depressed. It was just like, I don't know if I can do this again. Yeah. I mean, it just took so much out of me. The easiest book is the book I'm actually it's, it's, it's, it's the one I'm writing right now. And there's something different about it, where, like every other book was, was just like it was just grueling, grueling, grueling, to do the work this book, this new book I'm working on. It's just so much fun. I just can't wait to write it. And it's gone. You know? It's going to be out in early 2025, I've shown it to a couple BETA readers, and they're saying, oh my gosh, this is a page turner. How many times have you read any book that's a page turner? Yeah, but this book, it pulls you through. It's so much fun. It's it's taken me out of my comfort zone and introduced me to, like, really, some of the most creative, crazy people out there that are reinventing marketing. And it's about disruptive marketing and and it's just, it's going to be just unlike any book out there. I can't wait, wait for people to see it, and that it's just like, I just can't wait to work on this thing every day. It's been a completely different experience.
Jon Bailey 26:48
I am now very excited.
Mark Schaefer 26:51
It's going to be unlike any other book you've ever seen. If I will, I can guarantee it.
Jon Bailey 26:59
If you want to send me an advanced copy? I'm just saying, you know, you know, I'll send you a t shirt. No, that's fantastic. So alright, well, we'll definitely have you back on if you'll have us when the book is out. Sure. Yeah, I really, I'm excited about that, and as I, as I mentioned, all your books are great. I highly recommend them. I'll link them all in the post. And thank you. Your blog's fantastic. Your podcast is fantastic. So Mark, thank you so much for being on here. It's been a pleasure to see you again and chat with you, and I think there's just a ton of great information here. So thank you.
Mark Schaefer 27:43
Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody.
