Welcome to the Before You Market Podcast, where we challenge you to “Rethink Marketing.” To help us in the endeavor, we’ve invited some of the best marketers in the business to enlighten you on your path to a brand-first awakening.
Aside from having a great name, Robert Rose is one of my go-to experts for anything related to content marketing. He and future Before You Market guest Joe Pulizzi co-host the This Old Marketing podcast, and his Rose-Colored Glasses series on the Content Marketing Institute blog is always a must-read! In this episode, we're covering:
Tune in to the full episode below!
Robert is the founder and chief strategy officer of The Content Advisory - the consulting and advisory group of The Content Marketing Institute. As a coach and strategist, Robert has worked with marketers at over 500 companies, including global brands such as Adidas, Roche, Salesforce, NASA, and Hilton. Robert is the author of four books. His latest, Content Marketing Strategy, was published by Kogan Page in September 2023 and was called “a rich and much-needed understanding of content marketing" by Professor Philip Kotler. Robert is also an early-stage investor and advisor to several technology startups, serving on the advisory boards of a number of companies, such as DivvyHQ and BrandLens.You can follow him on Twitter @Robert_Rose.
Before joining the sales organization, I was a Principal Consultant for LinkedIn's Content Solutions team, where I advised strategic accounts on their brand and content strategy across the platform. I also led North America programs and strategies for our content consulting team in our Global Enterprise business, working with customers across multiple B2B and B2C verticals. I designed and delivered solutions and services, oversaw editorial development, coached and developed team talent, and represented LinkedIn as an industry thought leader and speaker. I am proud of the value and impact I have contributed to LinkedIn's $3B media business and our customers' success. Proof positive that B2B never has to be boring!
(edited for readability and humans)
Jon Bailey 00:01
Hi everybody, and welcome to the Before You Market podcast, where we challenge you to— that's right, you guessed it— rethink marketing. To help us in this endeavor, we've invited some of the best marketers around in the business to enlighten you on your path to a brand-first awakening. That's what I'm going with, and it's going to happen. I'm going to manifest it into existence. Aside from having a great name, Robert Rose is one of my go-to experts for anything related to content marketing. He and future Before You Market guest Joe Pulizzi co-hosts this old marketing podcast, which I highly recommend checking out. Anytime those two guys get together and talk, it’s a good time. So I highly recommend checking that out, and his rose-colored glasses series on the Content Marketing Institute is a must-read. Always great insight. So Robert, please take a moment and introduce yourself to these wonderful people.
Robert Rose 01:12
You're so very kind. You did a pretty good job, I will say. Yeah, I have, you know, I've spent the last—now it just keeps going up—the number keeps going, right? Twenty-five years now in marketing, and I have spent the bulk of my career helping organizations all over the planet sort of figure out how to use content and storytelling and, you know, the whole idea of delivering value through experiences digitally to drive a business result. You know, whether that be new lead generation, whether that be brand building, whether that be loyalty, whether that be, you know, evangelizing, and all the rest. And I have ridden all of the different waves, from the dot-com wave to the mobile wave to the social wave, and now the AI wave. And so, you know, here we are, four books later, and all kinds of clients that we work with on a day-to-day basis, and I'm just super happy to be here in 2024 and feeling a little better about the future, I have to say.
Jon Bailey 02:16
Yeah, yeah. I think good things are ahead. That's where I'm sticking with it. So, it's been a while since you and I last spoke. I interviewed you once before a few years back, and a lot has changed. Robots now rule us. That's right. And there are quite a few species of invasive insects that now call the US home. So we might discuss the robots. I doubt we'll get into the insects thing, but we'll see where it goes. So anyway, are you ready to do this? Alright, awesome. So, as I mentioned, Brand3 is on a mission to bring about a brand-first awakening to really get organizations to take their brand more seriously, to think about their brand. And I wanted to ask you, as a content guy, from a content standpoint, how important is a brand these days with content marketing, and do you see it growing in importance in the future?
Robert Rose 03:26
You know? And I say this knowing where I sit, knowing the show that I'm on, and I promise this isn't a softball right back at you, but I think it may be the most important thing in marketing today. It is not—ask him to say that, yeah, it is. You know, in a world where, you know, one of the things that we often forget is that it's not just content that has been democratized and sort of information that has been democratized across the Internet and everything else that we consume on a daily basis. It is also all of the other technologies, such as manufacturing, such as, you know, finance, such as the way that the globalization of everything. And so really, when it comes down to— and I mean, I go back to, you know, I go back to all of the ideas of really the only thing that differentiates us is the way that we can create an experience for a customer, and that is ultimately a trust in a reputation, which comes back to our brand. So ultimately, whether we call that the storyteller, whether we call that the brand, whether we call that the unique value, whether we call it, you know, it is all based on our reputation, what it is, where, and how we create trust with consumers. And so focusing on that, especially in 2024, is critical. And it's interesting. I mean, there are some nuances that I'm sure we'll get into in terms of, well, how do you do that in 2024 versus how might you have done that in 1995 or something like that? But the key is that it's all about if we're known and what we're known for, and do consumers trust us today. Because trust is the thing that we are in short supply of in today's world.
Jon Bailey 05:21
I really couldn't have said it better myself. I think especially with the robots taking over, trust is in short supply. And you know that the word "authenticity" keeps coming up, but I think in one of your posts, you talked about what it means to be authentic. You can be authentically bad, right?
Robert Rose 05:42
You can be an authentic asshole, right? Yeah, you can. You know, it just means you're of undisputed origin, you know, right? Now, without trust? Yeah, it's that transparency, right? It's, you know, one of my friends and colleagues often says, you know, you can't build trust. There's no such thing as building trust. The only way to be trustworthy is to be trustworthy, right? That's the only way you are trustworthy is if you continually demonstrate your trustworthiness. And that's a thing that builds up over time and is easily destroyed. It's, you know, one of the hardest things to demonstrate and one of the easiest things to lose. And so it is. It is just about being better, right? It is being better, being more authentic if you like that word, but truly being trustworthy, yeah.
Jon Bailey 06:30
You know, in a recent examination of which is more important, the post that I alluded to, you know, you ask, is it the story or the storyteller? You say the story creates the value and the trust, but if your audience doesn't believe in the storyteller, it's so much harder to make the story worth telling. So, exactly, what would you say to a company just starting out on a new content campaign? What should they consider when trying to build the trust of the storytellers themselves?
Robert Rose 07:04
Yeah, there are a couple of things that are important. One of the biggest challenges in today's world is that it’s a double-edged sword, right? It’s easier than ever to launch a new company, to get out into the marketplace, to be loud, and to demonstrate that through content because it’s all democratized. We have just as much power and ability to distribute content as any other large company out there. But the point is, there’s so much noise that if you’re new, it’s incredibly difficult to establish some kind of reputation right away.
So the real focus for any new brand or any new product that’s out there trying to establish itself is to build that differentiated value from step one, right? Read into that, maybe content marketing, but even broader than that, it’s about a brand story that you’re telling that is truly valuable and truly differentiated, to the point where your whole focus is just, I’m going to be valuable to you. I’m good because you can get attention, right? You can garner attention, but if you don’t do something with that attention— that which is so precious these days—then it doesn’t matter, right? So it’s no longer good enough to just be provocative or do weird things or do stunts that don’t build value because, ultimately, you have to start building a foundation from the very beginning.
Jon Bailey 08:41
Even the guys from Jackass are building some sort of trust that, you know, that they’re going to entertain you and you’re going to have a good time watching them.
Robert Rose 08:49
That's exactly right. That's that brand alignment that's so important, right?
Jon Bailey 08:54
So now you talked about the brand voice, which, you know, we preach it here. It matters a great deal. But, you know, what about the voice of the individual writer? Should brands allow that person's voice to come through? You know, allow some individuality, even if it may be somewhat not necessarily on brand?
Robert Rose 09:21
You know, the answer to that is, "It depends." Like so many times, it depends on what your brand is, right? Then the Jackass is great, you know, on one side of that spectrum, versus something like, you know, a Disney on the other side of the spectrum, right? So, yeah, that's a broad spectrum. The controls that you're putting in the walls of the garden, if you will, that you're building are going to be, you know, as high as you need to make them, depending on the brand value that you want to create with your public.
But having said that, yes, and in fact, it is about bringing forward the different points of view within that, the different voices within your organization that really gives you the strength. It gives you that broad portfolio of diversity that you're looking for, right? So, the way, and they're all telling us, hopefully, they're all telling the same or similar story. Again, your walls of your garden may be higher or lower, but they're telling the same or similar story, but they're doing so through their voice, through their lens, right?
And that includes all of the classic looks at diversity, but it also looks at things like regions. It looks at things like, you know, the different audience perspectives that you have. It looks through the lens of different experiences—everything you can experience, the experience with your product versus the inexperience with your product. So all those different lenses are truly valuable to telling a story.
The way I think about it is you've got a great television series that lasts, you know, 14, 15, 20 years. And think about all the different writers, directors, and actors that they've brought in to tell that story. You'd know a classic story with that classic series if you saw it. But if you pay attention, you can see that they're telling the same story in very diverse ways.
Jon Bailey 11:18
Even a series like Star Wars. You know, sure, sometimes it doesn't hit, and sometimes it's amazing, and then sometimes it hits for some and not for others. But I think, yeah, I agree. I think brands need to take that chance, and they need to— you talk about trust— they need to trust their team, you know, the people writing. They need to trust them enough to let them be themselves and let a little bit of that personality shine through. I think brands can get a little too tight-gripped on tone and messaging that they may miss some magical moments, absolutely.
Robert Rose 12:01
Right, and that's a really important point—those magical moments, right? Where you bring out, by accident or on purpose, someone who has a very diverse voice and ultimately brings something forward that you never knew was possible before. It can help take the brand in a new direction, and it can help, you know, or it may fall flat on its face, right? One of the two.
But the point is, yeah, if you're constantly satisfied with staying status quo, right, keep those controls, keep those things. But if you want to grow or if you want to evolve into becoming relevant for the modern audiences, whatever they may be, letting those diverse— you know, in so many ways, letting those freak flags fly, you know, can help you evolve and continue to stay relevant. You know, you think of brands that have been able to do that—Nike and Apple—and you know, they have changed their messaging, you know, subtly and importantly, slowly, but you can see how they've evolved over time to stay current with where the modern sort of Zeitgeist is.
Jon Bailey 13:12
Yeah, I would say that I'm a total freak. I don't have any piercings. My hair is its natural color. I have no tattoos. Okay. All right, here we go. So, I just want your take on AI and content creation. You know, when is it okay? When is it not okay? And, you know, what do you see as the future? It's not going away, you know. So, what do you see as the future of AI and content?
Robert Rose 13:43
Well, you know, what I'm struck by is the—so I just got back from Mecon, which is the Marketing AI Conference. I mean, literally, it just happened last week, and I was struck by how many of the, you know, and I'll say rock-and-roll quote, thought leaders, right? But they are thought leaders. I don't mean I'm not deprecating them. What I'm suggesting is that it's hard to be a thought leader in something that's literally two years old, and so it's constantly changing and constantly evolving. So the interesting thing to me, however, was even the people who are interviewing and talking to the people who are actually making it happen, right?
So there were two guys, you know, that are writing a book called Our AI Journey, right? They're writing it for Harvard Business Review, and they interview Sam Altman, Bill Gates, and Reid Hoffman. With each one of them, all of those people, all of those sort of giants in our industry, are all going, “I don't know. We're making this up as we go,” right? And so I think in so many ways, that's where we are right now with AI, whether it's in business, marketing, content creation, artistry, or any kind of content creation sort of idea. We're all in a—I don't know. We're sort of feeling our way through this, right? It's not very similar to the way we were in 1999 and 2000 with this new thing called the Internet. We didn't know; we were just sort of feeling our way and seeing what worked and what didn't work.
And so ultimately, if you take a snapshot of today, where I think we are is in a place where I look at content creation as a—you know, to be clear, I don't believe creativity is a problem that needs to be solved. And I think this is largely where you look at the open AIs of the world and the Anthropics and the Claws and Google and all of that. The problem that they're sort of focused on right now is creativity. In other words, they're saying, you know, the CTO of OpenAI was basically quoted as saying, “Look, you know, we can replace all these creative jobs. And if you've got these creative jobs that can be replaced, they probably were in the wrong seats in the building to begin with,” which is like, just an awful thing to say, right? It assumes that creativity—and human creativity—is a problem that needs to be solved.
However, there are ways to open up the idea of human creativity by offloading some of the things that AI is really good at. What is AI really good at today? Pattern recognition, right? So things that are highly structured and have patterns to them, like computer code, abstracts, outlines, summaries, all of those kinds of derivative idea generation. We have a wonderful idea, we're expressing that idea in our originality, and then we need to create derivative content that lives around it. That, to me, is the most valuable part of content creation and generative AI. That's a great point, yeah.
And so otherwise, I'm looking at my own ability to offload those things so that I can focus on creating better ideas to be expressed. Which goes back to our original point around brand and storytelling, which is, you know, what AI isn't good at right now is storytelling. It's just not a good storyteller, right? If you ask it—and I have—“Tell me a story,” right? Tell me the story of Star Wars, for example. It'll give you a detailed, wonderfully detailed plot, right? It'll tell you what happened, right? But there's no story there. There's no sense of a young farm boy trying to learn his way in the world and trying to figure out what this bigger force within him is. There's none of that. It's just like, “Nah. They go off and they fight some stuff, and then they fight this other thing, and the robots actually take over the thing.” And then, you know, and it's—that's what AI is really good at: plot, not story.
Jon Bailey 17:36
Was Luke Skywalker a moisture farmer?
Robert Rose 17:41
He was. He was indeed a moisture farmer. Yes, it's a very weird job.
Jon Bailey 17:49
George Lucas pitching it all right, so, little farm boy, well, what's he farming? Moisture, water.
Robert Rose 17:55
What?
Jon Bailey 17:59
That always cracks me up. Anyway, I always ask my team to give me some questions to ask the guests. And Sarah Pattisall is one of our brand strategists, and she always comes through. So once again, here is a question from Sarah Pattisall: In your book, Experiences: The Seventh Era of Marketing, you emphasize the shift from traditional advertising to creating valuable experiences, which we've talked about. As we move further into this era, how do you envision content marketing evolving to create more immersive and interactive experiences?
Robert Rose 18:45
Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah, it’s a fantastic question. And I think we can start to see, even in the efforts that are going on today, we're in a weird moment right now where social media has basically built up these walled gardens, right, of places where experiences are happening. And, coming back to AI for just a second, AI is infiltrating all of it, right, to develop more and more filtered experiences that ultimately keep us attached to those walled gardens. So whether it's Facebook's algorithm, Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, Google, Meta, Amazon, Netflix, you know, all of these sorts of giant 10 or 15 places where we are spending our time-consuming media.
There's a real need to create experiences there, right? So everything from hardcore B2B—think those. For example, my friends at Red Hat Linux are creating entire educational experiences on Amazon Web Services. You never need to go to their website. You never need to go to the Red Hat website to experience Red Hat, to learn about Red Hat, to learn about the technical aspects of it, have an amazing educational experience, and then even acquire it through Red Hat—or, excuse me, Amazon Web Services. You may never visit their website, so there's a real need to put out experiences.
And the same goes for creating experiences on Amazon's Retail Media Network or on Walmart or in Target, or some B2C, right, sponsoring documentaries, sponsoring the kinds of films that we see where product placement within these films on these streaming networks are going to become the new long-form types of advertising. I mean, Chick-fil-A just announced a streaming network, for crying out loud. So those kinds of things are happening right now, and it's a weird sort of distributed experience idea.
I do believe we're going to see the pendulum come back a little bit with owned media experiences being differentiated in a way that helps us keep those audiences—once we start to have them as customers. So you're seeing lots of things like educational enablement experiences. This is especially true in tech B2B. You're starting to see loyalty communities build up in brands. You're starting to see brands build things like entertainment networks or magazines or those kinds of things, but they're more focused on deeper levels of loyalty and evangelism.
So I see a shift happening right now, but right now it's really at the upper ends of the awareness funnel we have to focus on. And it's disappointing, and I hate it, but it's true. We've got to build those experiences on other people's properties just because that's where our consumers are consuming.
Jon Bailey 21:51
But when we do that, we have a much better shot of eventually pulling them back.
Robert Rose 21:57
Pulling them in. That's right, that's right. So yeah, that's right. As much as I would love the free and open Internet of the late '90s and early 2000s to reign free and be able to compete with those kinds of things, the trend isn't in that direction. The trend is, you know, we basically open up four different elements of whatever platforms we belong in, and we never go anywhere else because we can get all the value we need out of those things.
Jon Bailey 22:28
I think we all knew back in the '90s, the late '90s, and early 2000s, that it was a glorious time, and it was not going to last.
Robert Rose 22:39
Yeah, I mean, it used to be, I mean, we used to talk about the idea of 500 channels, you know, the Bruce Springsteen song, right? 500 channels and nothing on, right? And the idea of being able to go to so many places on the internet, right? You know, we used to see the internet as a place where we could explore and surf the internet and go to all these different experiences and experience them, right? And now it's basically aggregated down to the 10 or 15 places that are most popular, and everything else sort of builds through that. They become the filter by which we sort of look at the entire internet. For some people, Facebook is the internet. That is what they know, and it's a sad but true thing.
Jon Bailey 23:21
Yeah, that's craziness. I know exactly what you're talking about, and it's kind of nuts. But yeah, well, Robert, thank you so much for doing this. A lot of insight here. I think hopefully we've gotten further along the path of achieving a brand-first awakening. Also, I did want to clarify—you had said that no one knew what the future held in the late '90s with the internet. I would argue that Jeff Bezos knew because he was from the future.
Robert Rose 24:00
There you go, yeah. I mean, if you look at pictures of Jeff when he was in 1996, when he was that scrawny little guy, and now he's like a cyborg. You know, he's got the cool shades on; he's got some rocking sort of biceps.
Jon Bailey 24:19
Oh yeah, he's jacked.
Robert Rose 24:21
Yeah, he’s hilarious. He's turned into something completely different, but the funny thing is, when he laughs, he's still got that goofy laugh, right?
Jon Bailey 24:28
Yeah, you can't take the nerd out of Jeff. It's there. Alright, well, thank you again, my friend. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. And everyone out there, stay safe and remember to vote and all that good stuff. So thanks, all. Bye.
