Welcome to the Before You Market podcast, where we challenge you to rethink marketing in bold new ways! In our latest episode, we’re thrilled to welcome Ahava Leibtag, the fearless leader of Aha Media Group and a powerhouse in healthcare marketing. Ahava’s expertise is unmatched, and we’re diving deep into what makes her approach so effective.
Join us as Ahava tackles key topics in healthcare marketing, including:
This is an episode packed with insight and inspiration. Tune in to hear Ahava’s take on marketing strategies, memorable patient engagement, and so much more!
(edited for readability and humans)
Jon Bailey 00:01
Hi, welcome to the Before You Market podcast, where we challenge you to rethink marketing. To help us in this endeavor, we've invited some of the best marketers around to enlighten you on your path to marketing glory. Yes, Ahava, you are one of those people. Ahava is awesome, and I love her, and you will too. I know that was a little aggressive, but I don't care.
Ahava Leibtag 00:37
Hey, the world needs more love right now. Jon, exactly that—you are willing to put it out there.
Jon Bailey 00:41
Ahava is the fearless leader of AHA Media Group, and the expert on healthcare marketing, period. End of sentence, I have spoken. So, Ahava, please introduce yourself to these fine people.
Ahava Leibtag 01:02
Hi, I am Ahava Leibtag. Jon loves me. What else is there? We usually don't have bumper stickers like that. I'm a huge fan of Taylor, as you can see. I just got back from London from her show at Wembley, where she had Ed Sheeran. I run AHA Media Group, a content marketing agency with a 100% focus on healthcare. Our tagline is "All healthcare, content all the time."
Jon Bailey 01:34
So, I've interviewed you once before...
Ahava Leibtag 01:39
Once? I feel like every conversation with you is an interview, Jon.
Jon Bailey 01:43
What are you talking about? I'm not like that at all. It was my favorite, and it still is my favorite. So, you know, no pressure.
Ahava Leibtag 01:53
So when you put the two of us in the same room, we're just gonna say some crazy shit. So, like.
Jon Bailey 01:58
Exactly. So with that in mind, shall we? So, we are going to talk about healthcare. But first, I wanted to ask you about something you said in a recent post where you made a simple, but often overlooked recommendation to not post and forget because research shows people need to see a message seven times for it to sink in. So why do we keep forgetting this advice? Is it because of TikTok? Say TikTok. It's TikTok, isn't it?
Ahava Leibtag 02:34
What's the question?
Jon Bailey 02:38
Why do people keep forgetting?
Ahava Leibtag 02:40
Forgetting what? That same thing 100 times, or set it and forget it.
Jon Bailey 02:44
Why do they keep setting it and forgetting it and walking away?
Ahava Leibtag 02:49
Well, that's a good question. So what we find, more than anything else, particularly when we're talking to a new prospect, is we'll ask them some questions that help us get a sense of what their content strategy truly is. This is actually, like, I'm giving you, like, a really serious answer. So I don't think it's TikTok.
I think it's a lot of things. I do think that the divided attention in this world is a problem, but I don't think that's why people are setting it and forgetting it. When we ask people questions and we say to them, "Tell us about your documented content strategy," they look at us like, "What? What?" Which is why they're coming to us. So that's fantastic because that's what we do.
But the other thing we'll ask them is, "Tell us about your documented business strategy," and that's when they also look at us like... So what you'll find, which is pretty shocking, and it's a spectrum of dysfunction wherever you go, is that a lot of these businesses that you see on a regular basis—huge businesses, running all the way from global, multinational, whatever, down to the tiny Mom-and-Pop—executives change their strategy three or four times a year.
"Let's go talk about this. Let's talk about this. We need them to know about this." And the most successful companies are the ones that beat on the same boring drum over and over and over again. So, I think the reason people set it and forget it is that they actually set it with the really good intention of coming back to it, and then their executives tell them, "No, no, go to this next shiny object," or "We gotta go. We gotta have a presence on TikTok, right? There you go."
And then Clubhouse comes along, or whatever the next thing is that comes along, it's whatever, whatever.
Ahava Leibtag 04:43
It’s like, "Go get on Fortnite. Find a way to get healthcare on Fortnite, kill people, and then resurrect them with healthcare." So, you know, that's, I think, why that's happening. But yeah, in marketing, the thing to remember is to say the same thing 100 times, not to say one new thing 100 times. You just have to keep saying the same thing over and over and over again.
That's all we do. But yeah, all we do is healthcare content, all we do. And we still get people asking us questions like, "Can you do finance?" No, no, we can’t. Just healthcare. Just healthcare. That’s all we do.
Jon Bailey 05:15
So, speaking of healthcare, when it comes to balancing SEO and UX in healthcare content, you say that SEO improves brand awareness, while good UX improves patient engagement and acquisition. I love that, by the way. As AI permeates everything, do you think SEO will matter less in the future, and quality content and UX will matter more? Or am I just wishing for a better world that will never come?
Ahava Leibtag 05:42
Oh, that's such a nice question, and I think the answer is yes; you are wishing for a better world that may or may not come. So, you know, we spent a lot of time experimenting with AI this year, and in the beginning, I was more worried about losing my agency than I was about world values. So that tells you a little bit about, you know, I do care about people's jobs and things like that, sure.
But it became very quickly apparent to me that the problem wasn't writing or content creation. The problem was search. The problem was that Google and, you know, ChatGPT and Perplexity and all these other ones were going to use their software, for lack of a better term, or their platforms in order to shape information for people, to take sources that were carefully curated, that were carefully researched and edited by humans, and recombine them according to a large language model's internal logic to explain something to people.
And that's extremely problematic because every translation is an interpretation. So you could take three sources and use a computer's internal logic to put them together into an answer, but that doesn't mean that that answer has been fact-checked. Now, when speculating on a certain celebrity's divorce, it may not be that big of a problem, but when talking about healthcare and the most important decisions that people make every day in their lives, you are now looking at a major risk problem.
So, you know, I think that healthcare is so complicated that people are looking for shortcuts, and so if AI is right, and it can give people the answers that they need quickly, and then they can have a great user experience whenever they're interacting with your brand, that's what we're looking for. That's what we want.
The problem is that what we found is that AI seems to really be so quick to go to misinformation that we're not getting people the answers that they need—the really true answers that they need. And I actually was with a doctor yesterday for my own medical issue that I'm dealing with, and he looked at me and he's like, "I don't know what to tell you; the human body is complicated." It's true. Nobody wants to hear that, right? Everybody wants a simple answer.
But even doctors sometimes are like, "You know, this is complicated. We're going to have to figure this out." And you can't get that in a Google search. So I think that SEO is going to continue to be important. But when I say SEO, what I mean by that is search intent, meaning what are people looking for? How are we making sure that search visibility? How are we making sure that your content is found in whatever way that makes the most sense for your user?
That's what I think people need to really be focused on. And then, obviously, a great user experience is just a meta-message of what to expect from the brand when you're actually going to interact with them in real life. That's always what it should be. I don't even know if I answered your question.
Jon Bailey 08:47
No, you did, but, well, you know, it's interesting because I think it comes down to context. And I think AI struggles with context. It struggles with facts, but it also struggles with context. And so, you know, that's why the prompt engineers are so sought after now, because they can help AI, sort of hold AI's hand and walk it through the context issue.
Ahava Leibtag 09:10
I don't know. I'm trying to train it to write like me. I've been training it for a year, and I got it to be from like a grumpy toddler to like a six-year-old, as far as I've gotten with it. So maybe I need a prompt engineer; I don't know, but it just doesn't get it. It just doesn't get it. So I don't know. Maybe I'm training it for the wrong thing.
Jon Bailey 09:28
I don't know. I kind of think you just should stay with grumpy toddler.
Ahava Leibtag 09:32
Yeah, I do that. Well, I want my— I want the people that get my newsletter to like me. I still have a need to be like, "Jon, you don't want it. You don't want to get a newsletter from this Ahava bot bitch." I'm like, "Use one Taylor Swift reference per email. Scene. Lyrics later." What is hard to understand about one? Are you that big a Taylor fan? Come on.
Jon Bailey 10:05
So since the pandemic, it has been, or is now, since the bad part of the beginning of the pandemic, with the pandemic. So the pandemic, it's been harder for some health-related content to rank. You have things like your money, your life, which is basically Google's way of saying that things that impact your money or your life, we're going to hold to higher standards. So,
Ahava Leibtag 10:42
Isn’t it so obvious that we're like such a capitalistic society, that your money comes with your life?
Jon Bailey 10:48
Yeah, yeah. So what's your—what's your advice? You know, this is definitely in your wheelhouse. What's your advice for a smaller healthcare company looking to rank in such a competitive and, I don't want to say regulated, but yeah, more difficult—
Ahava Leibtag 11:02
Well, I think it still comes down to, like, the same basic rules, right? Fall in love with your customer. Like, who are they? What do they care about? What are their questions? Like, what are the top 100 questions that they are asking all day, every day?
I need a Salesforce developer. If anyone is listening to this and knows anything about Salesforce, can you please call me? Because that's all I need. I just need a Salesforce developer. I've been talking about it for months; I've been manifesting it. I can't find a good one. It's just very challenging. Let's make it happen, people. Just make it happen. Yeah, let's make it happen. People, let's get a case study out of this, and I'm sure that this thing works.
But so, you know, a small business owner uses Salesforce as one source of truth in her company and needs a Salesforce developer. Well, what's she looking for? What are the questions she's asking? What's she Googling? What does she care about? What's going to influence her? And that's what healthcare companies should be doing. Like, what are the top 10 questions my customers have?
And you literally should be creating content about those 10 questions in 17 different ways—visually, audio-visually, visually, you know, articles, social media posts, round-up interviews with experts, whatever it is. Say the same thing 100 times on the exact same topic, and what will happen is that the search engines will see you as an expert, and they will rank your content for that because they don't want to see one really great article.
They want to see 100 great articles on the exact same thing. And even though it may get boring, and even though you may have thought to yourself, I've already said this 99 times, the 100th time is when you're gonna get that customer.
Jon Bailey 12:45
100 articles later, you're a thought leader.
Ahava Leibtag 12:46
You're a thought leader. Exactly, exactly. And that's the only way. I don't know any other way to play this game. And, yeah—
Jon Bailey 12:53
So what you're saying is, it takes a lot of hard work.
Ahava Leibtag 12:58
Yeah, there's no—you know, you're an overnight success, but you've been working for 17 years. But yeah, that's, yeah, there's no—somebody was just asking me this yesterday, like, how did you become a speaker? And I'm like, it took like 13 years. Like, it didn't just happen overnight, you know? Like, like, how did you become a comic? Well, like, I played five-minute sets in, like, disgusting—
Jon Bailey 13:26
I was at a conference. There was a guy on stage. I thought I could do better than him, so I went up on stage, and I yanked him out of the way. And I've been speaking ever since. Never looked back from jail.
Ahava Leibtag 13:45
From jail. Yeah, right, exactly. So you mentioned your LinkedIn.
Ahava Leibtag 13:45
You're gonna edit this, right?
Jon Bailey 13:49
No, no. What would be the fun in that? You're out of your mind. Who do you think you're talking to? I'm not gonna edit this. This is all staying in.
Ahava Leibtag 14:00
Wow, this is awesome. All right. Well, this is color. I mean, you can't deny that people are getting the true experience. You probably made a promise, and we are delivering.
Jon Bailey 14:07
If you remember nothing else from this interview, 100 times, 100 times—
Ahava Leibtag 14:11
100 times.
Jon Bailey 14:13
Say it with us: 100 times. So, you mentioned your LinkedIn newsletter and that you want everybody to like you. I am subscribed to your LinkedIn newsletter. I love it. Everyone should subscribe. It's great. Do it. Do it after you watch the rest of this—
Ahava Leibtag 14:31
You should actually subscribe to our real newsletter at AhaMediagroup.com. I talk about how often do you find a newsletter that references Bridgerton, The Terminator, and Taylor Swift? I mean, come on, not all in all three in one. My editor won't let me mix metaphors, but yeah, it's a good newsletter, but it's about healthcare marketing. So, like, if you're a financial marketer, you probably would still love it because the basic tenets are still there, but the examples are from healthcare.
Jon Bailey 15:00
Okay, but here's the problem. My question is about your LinkedIn newsletter. So if you'd let me get back to that. All right, yeah. So I'm only asking because it seems like everybody—and I talked to Jenny Dietrich about this as well, yeah, and she loves her LinkedIn newsletter. She raves about it and says she actually gets—yeah, oh, it's great. And she says she actually gets business from it. So what is your advice to someone who has just been kind of sitting on this for a while and is looking to get into the whole LinkedIn newsletter game?
Ahava Leibtag 15:34
Well, is your audience on LinkedIn, and what are they looking for on LinkedIn, and what are you really going to be able to provide to them? And can you keep it short and sweet and to the point, so that they get value without having to give a lot of their attention span?
Because the minute somebody logs into a social media platform—and when I say logs in, I mean pulls it up on their phone or pulls it up on their desktop, whatever—they're not looking for, like, “Let me do a deep dive into a white paper right now.” That's not where their headspace is at.
They're like, “Let me see what's going on. What are people talking about? What's the news?” You know? And if they're getting your LinkedIn newsletter into their email and they're going through their email, they're probably not stopping to read it while they're reading their email.
So, like, when are you going to catch them? What's going to make real sense to them? Jon, I actually, let’s ask 100 people this question: do you set aside time to read your email newsletters, or do you just open them if the subject line is interesting to you? Do you like peruse it? And then how do you handle that? Because I always wonder, like, what different people's habits are.
Jon Bailey 16:42
It's a great question, and I'd love to know the answer too. So everybody, if you're watching this, throw your answer in the comments. But I mean, for me, you know, I kind of curate, and so I quickly scan, and if something catches my eye, then it becomes one of 100 tabs on Chrome.
Ahava Leibtag 17:02
I will forget to...
Jon Bailey 17:06
Mostly, actually, I'm pretty good about it. Yeah, I'm kind of annoying that way. I don't like closing out a tab unless I've actually, at least, you know, scanned the article.
Ahava Leibtag 17:15
It's frustrating to me. I find it's very hard to get the signal through the noise. Now, like, even content creators I used to trust, I don't always read their stuff anymore because I find that it's not that it's commercial; it's just they're not saying anything new that I can't, like, get from, like, 140—what are we up to—240, 280, whatever the character count now is on X.
Jon Bailey 17:40
A good solid handful of characters.
Ahava Leibtag 17:52
Yes, 100 times. And that's what's—and that's so that's, yeah. You know, all you content creators out there that are creating bad stuff, stop, knock it off. Yeah. But the LinkedIn newsletters are very important. I think if your audience is on LinkedIn, if you're in the B2B space, do it and be smart about it, and watch your analytics.
What you see that's successful are the things to emulate; the things that aren't landing—don't spend a lot of time on those. Watch the things that land. Figure that part of it out. So I just posted on LinkedIn last week. Somebody sent me an unsolicited email that started with "Hi dear." I know it's exciting, and I posted this on LinkedIn. I'm like, please don't do this. You would not believe the responses I got.
It was like everybody needed a moment to just talk about how bad this email situation has gotten, and that did really well. It made me start thinking to myself, you know what? I need to start being, like, more vulnerable and more Ahava on LinkedIn and stop posting, like, my blog posts, you know what I mean, right? Yeah, people want to know what I think about something; they'll find it. They know.
But so I think that that's an example of, like, find the bright spots, find the things that are working for you on LinkedIn, and then emulate those things. Don't spend a lot of time worrying about, like, "Why didn't this newsletter do that?" Well, because no one cared. Go to the thing that worked.
Jon Bailey 19:12
I think it's crucial. And, you know, just to kind of reiterate what you're saying, I think it's important to be real, and I think it's also important to be, you know, a source of valuable information. I mean, if you're creating content that AI could have easily created, in my opinion, you're doing it wrong. Maybe AI will get better, and it will be able to create valuable content. But I see so much stuff out there where I get done reading it, and I'm like, why did I waste my time? There's nothing here.
Ahava Leibtag 19:44
Yeah, I'll abandon ship halfway through, yeah? Like, if I'm not learning anything new, I will scroll to the bottom of the page and, like, try to figure out, like, where did the lead get buried? And if I can't find it in, like, two minutes, I'm out. So, yeah, I agree. So the truth of the matter is that AI can create good 101, 102 content.
It's the nuance that people look to from whoever you are that's watching this. They want your point of view. That's what people are hungry for, like, tell me what to think or tell me what I should be thinking about. What are the ins and outs of this issue? That's what people are looking for from content. I don't think that they're looking for the, like, basic explainer: what is marketing?
Although I will say, you know what I find really interesting? I do find sometimes that, like, I talk to people, and I'm like, people have a very wide and varied definition of what marketing really is. And I do think it would be interesting to get, like, a bunch of marketers in the room and ask them some basic questions. Like, did you learn about the four P's in school? Did you go to school?
Jon Bailey 20:52
But here's the crazy thing. The crazy thing is that some of them, the people who don't know about the four P's and who don't know about marketing basics, might have some brilliant ideas.
Ahava Leibtag 21:02
Oh, totally, yeah, no, no, that's no dig on anyone.
Jon Bailey 21:07
It’s just nuts, like, because I think that's the point. It's the humans, it's the original, nuanced take of things that makes the impact, that gets people's attention, and that gets you noticed, and that gets Google to notice you.
Ahava Leibtag 21:23
Right. I don't have CMOs texting me about my opinion on something because I explained to them what healthcare content marketing is. They want my opinion, like you're watching this. Ahava, it's your job to watch this. What are you seeing? And my response to them is usually, well, I think three things about it, and here's the three things that I think, and all three of them might be in conflict with each other, but hear me out.
Jon Bailey 22:50
Did you mention Taylor Swift? Very important. So 100 times people mentioned Taylor.
Ahava Leibtag 22:58
Swift, 100 times.
Jon Bailey 22:59
100 times, 100 times. Finally, we have a question from someone on our team, specifically one of our strategists. You've heard her name before. She's awesome. She's amazing, the one and only, Sarah Patisall. Her question is, when you're working to break down complex topics and communicate them within the healthcare industry, is there a method or framework you follow for yourself or your team? What's that process like for you?
Ahava Leibtag 23:29
Oh my gosh, yes, yes, there is. Pretend like I'm five, like Michael Scott you need to declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy. Um, yes, absolutely. So, well, okay, so again, this comes back to who you're talking about and who your persona is, and who this is targeted for. So in healthcare, and I know this is an overused word, but Sarah, you'll go with me on this one, and anybody else who's listening. People are on a journey.
So in a healthcare journey, you could be a person who, let's say, let's take pregnancy for an example. I'm trying to conceive. I just found out I'm pregnant. I'm pregnant and there's a problem. God forbid, I'm trying to figure out which doctor to use. I'm trying to figure out if I have gestational diabetes. What do I expect from that? There's so many different stages you could be in.
And so what we try to figure out when we're taking something complex is we're trying to figure out, where is this person in that learning journey, and how do we then speak to them so that they don't feel like they have to go back to the one-on-ones, they feel like we're meeting them where they are. And that's the hardest part about what we do. So let's take a heart problem. You know, usually when people have a heart problem, they have symptoms, and those symptoms can become like we said, the body's complex.
So you could be short of breath. Well, if you're short of breath, that could be asthma, that could be emphysema, that could be a heart problem, that could be a weight problem. I mean, there are so many things that have to be created from that. And so if somebody's told that they have heart failure, and then they're told they have advanced heart failure, and then they're told about the types of advanced heart failure that they could potentially be having, we want to try to figure out where they are in that journey.
And so we use something called a bite, a snack, and a meal. So a bite is like a small piece of information about that; a snack might be, you know, like a snack, like something a little bit bigger, and then a meal would be like an in-depth dive into this topic. So good. UX actually helps to support this journey because we can say to somebody recently diagnosed with heart failure, in treatment for heart failure, looking for a second opinion, and then let them self-select where they are, and then the content should be, you know, arranged according to that journey, right?
So that's the framework that we really try to use. Who are we talking to? Where are they in their journey, and how do we meet them where they are, either with, like, a little bit of a reminder or a lot of a reminder or just completely delving into a new topic? And that's the framework that we use. So a lot of plain language. You know, people think it's about like dumbing things down or taking out jargon. That's not really what it is.
It's good writers organizing or good content creators organizing information for people in a way that helps them understand it better, right? That's really what content creation is about. It's about figuring out how do I meet the person where they are in their informational need at that moment. And that is a bumper sticker right there? Could I get that on a card?
Jon Bailey 26:39
Yeah, of course.
Ahava Leibtag 26:40
Could we rewind that? And can I get my graphic designer to do something like that? Because that's a bumper sticker right there?
Jon Bailey 26:46
Do you want to just say it again?
Ahava Leibtag 26:50
Content creation is about organizing information for the person so that you meet them where they are in their informational journey, in their journey, in their informational needs journey, something like that.
Jon Bailey 27:03
It's gonna cause a lot of accidents. They're gonna be like getting all up close and be like, what is that? Well, okay, that went by way too fast.
Ahava Leibtag 27:22
I know it’s always so fun with you.
Jon Bailey 27:23
I know, I love you; you don't even know.
Ahava Leibtag 27:24
If we provide value to the audience, can you guys let us know? Because I just feel like I'm hanging out with a friend.
Jon Bailey 27:29
No, it was valuable.
Ahava Leibtag 27:31
Jon, I want to know, what do you think? What do you think about what's going to happen with SEO and AI?
Jon Bailey 27:41
Yeah, I think it's nuanced. I think you're always going to need some sort of human intervention. I think we are a long, long way away from artificial general intelligence, where AI is actually able to factor in context and nuance and humanity and all of those things. I think we're always going to need people in their opinions, especially thought leaders and experts. And I agree with you. I think that SEO is going to change. I think it's going to be less about, you know, how many keywords you have, although it's not really about that now.
Ahava Leibtag 28:29
But what if it is?
Jon Bailey 28:33
Yeah, that's a good point.
Ahava Leibtag 28:35
I think, "What if it is?"
Jon Bailey 28:38
Well, what if it is? A nice way to work it back in.
Ahava Leibtag 28:41
100 times?
Jon Bailey 28:44
No, I think you're always going to need some kind of human intervention, and if that comes in the form of SEO, you know, then so be it. But I think how that is done, the mechanics of it are going to change, just like they have with SEO over the last 20 years. But I don't, I mean, to a certain extent, yes.
Ahava Leibtag 29:08
I don't think so. See, that's what I think. I think this is the big smoke screen that nobody is willing to talk about. I think we haven't really evolved. That's what I think is so sad about what's going on is that Google is still using the same nonsense best practices that they've used for the last 20 years. Do I think that it's gotten more complicated and more engineered? Absolutely, but at the end of the day, like, you got to have a great H1, gotta have a good, you know, an author tag. For two years, the author tag was really important before the pandemic, then they took it away. They took it away, then they're putting it back in. Like, those are the games at the end of the day, the H1 is still not the game—that's the table stakes.
Jon Bailey 29:50
Okay, so agreed. I think what AI is going to do is it's going to tweak that process a little bit because I think it's going to allow the search engines to learn what something is about without having to rely on those tags as much.
Ahava Leibtag 30:10
Yeah, I mean, I'm not smart enough to really understand that part of it.
Jon Bailey 30:14
No, you can't back away now. No, no, you are standing by your statement that nothing—
Ahava Leibtag 30:24
I'm not backing away from my statement. I'm not backing away from my statement. I just think it's a lot more complicated and a lot less complicated than we make it. How about that?
Jon Bailey 30:42
Ahava thing? Leibtag 2020.
Ahava Leibtag 30:43
I just completely ruined my cred. Take that out.
Jon Bailey 30:47
No, I know exactly what you're saying because I think a lot has not changed, and what has changed has not yet had an impact on what has not changed. How's that for an even more complicated answer?
Ahava Leibtag 31:01
That's exactly right.
Jon Bailey 31:02
I know I'm always exactly right. Yeah.
Ahava Leibtag 31:08
It's funny because people say people haven't changed, but I think people's consumption behaviors have changed. That's the huge problem that we're trying to figure out. We're all nuts. People are very, very fast until it becomes very, very important, and then all of a sudden—
Jon Bailey 31:22
Yup, that's the piece. That's the piece that I think so many people are missing: they're all thinking it's all bite-size, it's all—and that long-form is going to get ignored. And that is BS. I'm sorry.
Ahava Leibtag 31:35
People want long-form.
Jon Bailey 31:36
They will of any generation.
Ahava Leibtag 31:40
I just downloaded a 48-page ebook. You know what I mean? Like, I am absolutely desperate for it. I love The New Yorker.
Jon Bailey 31:46
I have downloaded ebooks, and I'm somewhat ashamed to say I've printed them out.
Ahava Leibtag 31:55
There's some trees outside my window. I'll whisper to them nicely as we hang up. Jon, you're awesome.
Jon Bailey 32:02
You’re awesome too. I love you. You're the best. You too.
Ahava Leibtag 32:06
And make good choices. Anybody, if you want to talk to me, I'm at [email protected]. I always love a good conversation about anything, even if you're in finance or marketing. But for the 100th time, if you want to talk about Taylor Swift, I’m your girl.
Jon Bailey 32:19
I mean, you're a pro. How much better of an ending can you ask for? Let's walk away now. Let's walk away. Yes, bye, everybody.
Ahava Leibtag 32:33
Thank you, Jon. I really appreciate it.
